Dear John and Tim,
We are a group of Dundee supporters extremely concerned about the current state of our club and write to ask that you consider making changes to the way it is run to prevent the growing unrest among fans from turning into a threat to its very future.
The recent Scottish Cup tie against Rangers was one of the lowest points in the club’s history. To attract little over 1000 fans for a home Quarter Final was an embarrassment but it was also an accurate reflection of the discontent felt by supporters. These fans have faithfully followed Dundee for decades but now feel completely disconnected from the club.
Leaving aside matters on the field, the decision to not push Rangers to reduce the ticket price from £30, or to publicly address this at a time when many are struggling with a cost of living squeeze, was widely perceived to be the act of a board completely detached from the reality of life for the average man or woman in the street.
That attendance, and the growing gaps in the stand at matches as this season has progressed, should also act as a warning about potentially disastrous season ticket sales for next term. Fans are voting with their feet and the risks of this apathy spreading further are existential.
Despite this, we don’t believe the club board appreciate just how deep the level of disenchantment goes. In order to stop the bleeding, we call on you to commit to a programme of reform based on three simple principles:
FPS was originally pitched as a partnership between fans’ groups, local directors and investors. We urge you to reinstate fan representation to the boardroom as soon as possible. Which group or groups this representation comes from is less important than ensuring that the concerns of supporters can be aired at board level.
All organisations benefit from a diversity of opinions and ideas but the club’s decision-making base has narrowed significantly in recent years. Within the Dundee fanbase and local community there exists a great deal of expertise in areas such as commercialisation, communications, and marketing. We urge you to take advantage of these skill sets and contacts by appointing independent directors capable of developing strategy in these areas.
Dundee shareholders were persuaded to give up the club’s AGM by a previous board on the basis that regular Q&A events would take place. That regime, and subsequent boards, stuck by that pledge and faced fans no matter how bad the situation facing the club was. We call on you to reinstate the shareholders’ AGM, at a minimum, as a way of demonstrating your willingness to be held accountable for the decisions you make.
We recognise the difficulties associated with running a football club, the financial commitment that FPS has made to Dundee, and that everything you have done is in what you believe to be the best interests of the club. We also recognise that FPS have provided several years of stability, particularly during the Covid-19 pandemic that threatened our survival. However, something has clearly gone badly wrong, and the cumulative effects of footballing and business decisions taken over several years are now being felt.
We will be opening up this letter to our fellow fans and asking them to back calls for increased representation, expertise and accountability. We believe this offers a way for you, the club owners, to begin rebuilding a relationship that has soured over the years and to turn this present crisis into an opportunity to engage with those with the best interests of the club at heart. We would also welcome the opportunity to discuss these aims, and the situation facing the club generally, at a time that suits both of you.
Finally, we would like to wish Mark McGhee and the players all the best in the remaining seven league games of the season. Whatever our issues with those running the club are, any team that runs out wearing the Dundee badge on their chest will always have our unconditional backing.
Yours sincerely,
Patrick Barclay
Michael Colgan
Barry Davidson
Ross Day
Michael Garty
Grant Hill
Paul Hocking
Cllr George McIrvine
Ryan Norrie
Scott Roberts
Hi everybody,
First of all, thank you to everybody who has signed the open letter. You may have seen in the local media that we have received a response from John Nelms and Tim Keyes, which we replied to over the weekend. To keep all of you up to date, we've included the text of these two letters below, and will keep you posted on any further developments.
RESPONSE FROM JOHN NELMS AND TIM KEYES
Members of the Dundee community,
Thank you for your recent email and your continued support of Dundee Football Club. We can assure you that behind the scenes the Club is stable and going from strength to strength, although the results on the pitch since being promoted have not been to the standard we have set for the organization. As ever, we endeavor to remedy this. We appreciate your letter and acknowledge your suggestions, in light of which we would like to respond with the following. By way of providing perspective, it is important to remember where we came from and where we are today.
Then:
Since November 2003 – one of the darkest days in the Club’s history – when the Club went through a catastrophic administration, our Club was perpetually in the Championship and was forced to endure yet another administration in October 2010.
Now:
Since we arrived in August 2013, the Club has been in the Premier League six of our eight years. The Club is financially stable through the implementation of sound business practices, even when unpopular. We have and are still navigating a pandemic without taking on debt. We continue to increase commercial income and have the most lucrative kit deal the Club has ever secured. We have made significant investment in infrastructure, facilities, and people.
Then:
Our Academy hardly existed, and the Club’s facilities were either non-existent or in a very poor state. We had no ladies’ toilets in the south enclosure, no sprinkler system within our pitch, our first team was training at Dawson Park and our Academy was training where they could find space. The kiosk offerings were from a national supplier and were substandard, poor quality and overpriced. Our Club had no relationship with the governing bodies nor relationships with any Premier League club. Commercially, most of the commercial community had been alienated by the Club through its actions and only a few remained. The Club was on the brink of another collapse as the money was gone and funding options did not exist.
Now:
Since 2013, the investment into infrastructure and facilities has been enormous which includes but not limited to partnerships with University of Dundee, Dundee Leisure and Culture (The Regional Performance Centre) which have resulted in the teams now accessing three all-weather pitches (one indoor) and a host of DFC-maintained grass pitches, swimming pools, and indoor halls.
Our Academy is producing players and we have inducted our second class into St. Johns HS. We are giving our academy players the best opportunities for training, facilities, and education. The Academy is also producing more players, with several making their debuts and are either in or near the first team. We have commissioned and fronted our charity, DFC in the Community Trust, which is nationally recognized and is the largest community department DFC has ever had. The Trust is consistently producing significant benefits for children, young people, and older individuals throughout Dundee and for which the benefit to the community increases year on year.
At Dens a marketing and public relations specialist has been hired but due to covid her appointment was delayed. With the rigors of the fallout of covid she has been forced to focus on the operational aspect of the commercial business of the Club, although we anticipate that soon her focus and the application of her specialty skills will be back onto marketing and PR. Within the building over the past eight years we have built ladies toilets in the south enclosure, installed the underground sprinkler system, extensively painted and decorated most areas of the building including the steel works. Fan pods were built near the south enclosure. We upgraded the changing rooms, installed efficient showers, installed smart boards, and added ice baths. The gym was comprehensively upgraded and properly equipped. We successfully brokered a deal with Hilton/Landmark to provide a first-rate offering for the fans in the lounges which has also resulted in perfect health and safety ratings/inspections. The kiosk catering was brought in-house and now provides high-quality local fare at a better price for the fans.
We have a sound, open relationship with the Dundee Supporters Association and have bi-weekly meetings with head of the DSA answering questions aired by the fans. The Supporters Liaison Officer also has a direct line of communication with senior members of the Club. Prior to covid the head of the DSA, the Trust, and Dee Promotions were invited monthly to the DFC senior staff meetings. The Trust and Dee Promotions have been back in these meetings as they work within the building and the DSA invitation has been reinstated now that covid restrictions are being lifted. The 1893 Foundation was created in partnership with dedicated and passionate supporters two years ago in the midst of the pandemic and the monies raised go directly into the first team budget. We have also extended our relationship with the Dundee Historical Trust based on all the good work they are doing preserving and showcasing DFC’s rich history.
We have solid strong relationships with the SFA, SPFL, and most other Clubs, resulting in Dundee FC having a proper voice within the ranks in the football community. Our relationships with government officials and leading members of the civic community are strong and mutually respecting, earning the Club recognition and standing in Dundee and Tayside.
And over the past eight years we have donated charitable gifts, cash, and in-kind ticket donations that total nearly £1 million. Our board consists of leading members in their respective fields, and even when taking us out of the equation, there is more than 90 years of Dundee FC fans on the board. But moreover, we are fans who live and die with every kick of the ball.
In conclusion, we understand that the results we have been delivering for the benefit of the Club may not always be obvious from the outside and may be easy to overlook when results on the pitch aren’t always going our way. However, every decision that is made comes from a place of acumen in football, business, and with strategic aims in mind. Dundee Football Club is stable and secure and will be here for generations to come because of the commitment we made to the Club and the fans nearly nine years ago. Our goal is to continue to have a presence in the Premiership, to be a top-six team, and to produce first team players through our Academy, knowing some years may be better than others, and that we’re here for the long haul. We are committed to the continued growth and development of Dundee FC.
Thank you all for your continued support!
Tim, John, and all of us here at Dundee FC
OUR RESPONSE:
Dear John and Tim,
Thank you for responding to our open letter.
We once again acknowledge the stability you have brought to the club and note the achievements you have listed. It is reassuring to hear you restate your commitment to Dundee and we have never doubted that your intentions for the club were anything other than honourable.
However, we do not feel your reply directly addresses the core element of our open letter - the call for reform to the structure of the club to increase representation, expertise and accountability. To that end:
Will you commit to reinstating fan representation at boardroom level?
Will you commit to introducing individuals with new skillsets and fresh ideas to the board of directors?
Will you commit to reintroducing a club AGM, or other public meeting, where shareholders/supporters are able to ask questions about the running of the club?
Given that the open letter has achieved significant traction - considerably more Dundee supporters have now signed it than attended the recent cup quarter final - we believe we are speaking for a substantial number of fans when we ask whether you will be willing to meet with a small number of the original signatories to address these questions.
Those who signed the letter gave support to the continuation of FPS ownership but called for fairly moderate reforms to ensure that the club can not only survive this current crisis but thrive in its aftermath.
In your response you make reference to the events of 2003 and 2010. The circumstances leading up to both are very different but on each occasion questions failed to be asked of those in power. We cannot afford to make the same mistake again.
Yours sincerely,
Patrick Barclay
Michael Colgan
Barry Davidson
Ross Day
Michael Garty
Grant Hill
Paul Hocking
Cllr George McIrvine
Ryan Norrie
Scott Roberts
Hi all,
By now you will likely have seen John Nelms’ Courier interview in which he addresses the open letter you all signed. If you haven’t, we include the full text below.
The club’s reply to the last letter we sent them was similar in content and they confirmed they did not agree with any of the suggestions made around representation, expertise or accountability.
In addition, the board have ruled out our request to meet with them to discuss these issues and have instead encouraged us to affiliate with the DSA in order to be privy to the information shared with them.
In our opinion this does a disservice to the more than 1200 Dundee supporters who added their names to the letter. We remain concerned about the future and do not believe fans should have to form a supporters’ club to ask questions about what is happening at Dens Park.
We are aware that some fans who signed the letter may have a different opinion having heard from John Nelms over the past week and we would not claim a mandate to talk for you all beyond our original call for the changes that the club have now ruled out.
We will, however, meet shortly to discuss measures fans can take to support the club while encouraging transparency and accountability.
In the meantime, anyone who wants to discuss ideas for the future can contact us on campaigndfc@gmail.com.
Thanks for your support,
Paddy, Mike C, Barry, Ross, Mike G, Grant, Paul, George, Ryan and Scott.
John Nelms insists Dundee are not in “crisis-mode” despite the club’s position in the Premiership and a disillusioned fanbase.
The Dark Blues are facing relegation back to the Championship with only seven matches left to overhaul a four-point deficit to St Johnstone.
On top of that, fans have been voting with their feet in recent weeks with many staying away from the recent Scottish Cup quarter-final against Rangers.
There has been anger in the stands as well as empty seats while Nelms has been trading letters with an “extremely concerned” group of fans about the way the club is run.
A major issue that comes up again and again from fans is a lack of meaningful communication from the club and Nelms says there is work being done to improve things on that front.
On the initial open letter, he said: “It gave us an opportunity to talk about what is actually happening behind the scenes.
“We are not in crisis-mode, the club is very stable.
“We are continuing to build different elements within the organisation and we will continue to build and invest.
We have been in the Premiership in six of the eight years we have been here. Prior to that it was 2005.
“That whole time I would say is a successful period in the organisation.
“We have had road bumps on the park but we will continue to strive to get the right people in place, get top-level football people in place like we have to help make decisions.
“We take advice from top-level football people and try to get it right. But they are human beings and there is no formula that is 100% successful.”
The open letter, with over 1,300 verified signatures added to it online, called for fan representation at boardroom level, expanding the range of expertise at the club and more accountability of decisions made at Dens Park.
There has since been replies back and forth between the parties.
“We wrote a letter back and we are always accountable in everything that we do, every single day,” Nelms said.
“A lot of the elements we have in place have been successful in our minds.
“We meet with the DSA on a regular basis, they ask us open questions, we answer those open questions.
“We have a running dialogue and have had that for a long time.
“Prior to Covid, we started having them come into our staff meetings once a month.
“We’d have the charity, the DSA and Dee Promotions all coming in to make sure everyone was on the same page.
“I think you have a certain group that wrote the letter who have a different opinion and might not want to be part of those groups. They may not be getting the information that they are getting.
“But they can certainly be part of those groups to get that information.
“We are not going to go backwards. Some of the suggestions they made are suggestions that have been made in the past but it was always in the time we were in an unsuccessful period.
“I am talking about financially unsuccessful, commercially unsuccessful and unsuccessful on the park – across the board unsuccessful.
“We are not going to go back to those days, we are going to move forward.
“We always want people and groups to have positive impacts on the organisation. If there are new and innovative ideas, we absolutely want them to be part of it.
“We are always open to that.
“I would say the group (that wrote the letter) should form as a group, become part of the DSA and be heard. Speak to the Supporters Liaison Officer, be heard.
“I don’t think you can say there are not fans on the board. Two of our board members (Bob Hynd and Lindsay Darroch) have been Dundee fans for over 90 years.
“It’s also saying that [chairman Tim Keyes] and I aren’t fans. This is it, this is what we do, this is our team and people discount that because we’ve only been here eight years.
“Myself and my family have just become British citizens as of Monday so we are here for the long haul.”
To combat the poor communication between club and fans, the open letter called for an AGM to return or for some sort of Q&A so supporters can ask questions of Nelms.
The Dundee managing director, though, says there’s no need.
“We do that, with the DSA,” Nelms countered when asked about holding an AGM or Q&A.
“They came up three weeks ago with 16 questions that we answered.
“We have an open dialogue and this group (who wrote the open letter) can be part of that dialogue, there’s no issues with that.
“We feel that we do that.
“I’m sure there are ways to get information out in different forms and we can potentially look at that.
“But we have these Q&As so that’s why it feels strange when someone says you are not doing it. We are doing it and have always done it.
“We have meetings with the DSA at every home game for as long as I can remember, except because of Covid.
“They aren’t always positive meetings, there are issues from time to time.
“We’ll have one on Saturday.
I’ll give them updates on where we are at and what we’re doing, sometimes more than we would say in public.”
Nelms insists the only issue at the club right now is the position the team find themselves in the league table.
But he has asked for the fans at Dens Park to get behind the team as they attempt to get out of relegation trouble, beginning this Saturday at home to Aberdeen.
“We don’t look for pats on the back,” he added.
“Being a fan, you don’t really care about what goes on behind the scenes.
“In our case, the only thing that’s wrong is we aren’t winning games. We are trying to put that right.
“We do everything we can possibly do to get it right and sometimes we don’t get it right.
“We understand that and we make sure we learn from it.
“The team itself needs as much backing as it can possibly get.
“We are in a hole, we have to get ourselves out of the hole and we need our friends to help us.
“And back the team with unconditional love, so to speak, to get to the heights they can get to.
“But, behind the scenes, we are stable, we are building and we are successful in many different areas of the club.
“We will be getting more and more information out there, showing the success, showing the academy, showing how things are working.
“Hopefully, that will help.”
Following the club’s rejection of our initial proposals we wrote a follow up letter several weeks ago making further suggestions and once again requesting a meeting with the board to discuss the situation facing the club. We have yet to receive a reply from them.
We took the decision at the time not to make this public as we didn’t want anything to detract from the team’s efforts to fight relegation. As we sadly now know the outcome of the season we now share the following with you.
Following relegation, we face a difficult time with it being clear that significant change is required across the club’s operations. We will continue to press for the board to engage with fans and allow them to help inform this change while encouraging everyone to continue to support the team and their efforts to bounce straight back from relegation.
Regards,
Barry, George, Grant, Mike C, Mike G, Paddy, Paul, Ross, Ryan, Scott
Dear John and Tim,
We write in response to your most recent communication in which you confirmed the club would not be introducing any of the measures which we called for and which were backed by a significant percentage of the Dundee support.
We are disappointed by this but note John’s recent comments that you are always open to new ideas. In that spirit, our group met last week to discuss alternative ways of helping the club while addressing the issues we raised in our open letter and that close on 1300 fans agreed were problematic. These are:
· The club’s next Supporter Liaison Officer should be a full-time employee, as is the case at other clubs and as is recommended by the Scottish FA. The SLO’s full responsibilities (as per SFA guidelines) are so extensive that they cannot be carried out on a part-time basis. This would ensure not just more effective representation of issues but also more opportunities for positive fan engagement. Furthermore, we propose that the vacancy is advertised and that applicants are interviewed and appointed jointly by the club and fans’ groups.
· We propose that the club commits to a review of all aspects of its business, in conjunction with stakeholders and other external figures, to identify areas of both strengths and weaknesses and develop strategies for future development. We believe that fan engagement should be seen as a positive and vital undertaken and that the fanbase has many experts in their respective fields and is somewhat an untapped resource at present.
· Following extensive discussion with signatories of the open letter and the wider fan base there is such clear support for a shareholder AGM that we ask you to reconsider the decision to rule this out. In John’s recent Courier interview he said you were accountable for your decisions every day. As such, we once again ask that the board be willing to stand in front of shareholders once a year and answer questions they have about the running of the club. We note the comments about you not wanting to return to measures that contributed to unsuccessful spells, but AGMs took place throughout the most successful periods in our history and we are the only club of our size in Scotland not to currently hold one.
You suggested that we affiliate with the DSA to receive the information they do. Fundamentally we do not believe any Dundee fan should have to start a supporters’ club to find out what is happening at Dens Park or to ask questions & suggest improvements of the club, open fan engagement channels should be a fundemental of the club and a corner stone of future success . At their recent meeting, the DSA were clear that they should not be the sole conduit for communications to and from the board and noted that their constitution would not permit an open group such as ours to affiliate with the organisation.
When we speak to Dundee supporters about their feelings for the club just now the word that comes up time and time again in ‘disconnected’. We will continue to press for changes to the representation structure to try and bring the club and its fans back together and hope you will seriously consider these alternative proposals as well as to respond positively to the growing demand for an AGM reintroduction. Once again, we ask that you meet with our group to discuss our objectives and proposals.
It has to be noted that we have been heartened by the recent communication drive from the club including creating a discount match package for the final two games, supporting the SE section creation and encouraging then matching the great work of the supporters' club to raise funds for tickets for those unable to afford the games. We hope to continue to see this positive engagement year-round to prevent fans feeling disconnected.
While we have previously made communications public, in the spirit of the open letter, we understand the importance of nothing acting as a distraction ahead of Saturday’s vital match with St Johnstone and so will not be updating our signatories until things have hopefully taken a turn for the better on the park. In the meantime, we hope that you will give serious consideration to our proposals and are agreeable to meeting up at the soonest opportunity.
When our group came together, we were motivated by a desire to mend the connection between the club and its fanbase broken by events on and off the park in recent years. We hoped the board would engage with our ideas as a first step to rebuilding this relationship and to avert potentially catastrophic season ticket sales that will either lead to budget cuts or necessitate substantial investment by the club’s owners to fill the resulting shortfall.
As you know, they have decided not to engage with any of the ideas we have proposed and have failed to even acknowledge to the follow up letter we sent over a month ago. We believe they still fail to grasp the seriousness of the discontent amongst fans. To quantify this, we ask that you take a few moments to fill in the following anonymous survey about your intentions with regards to attending Dens next season and your level of satisfaction with the direction the club is moving in.
There is also a free text section in which you can share your feelings about the way the club is being run. All constructive and respectful feedback will be passed on to the club. We hope they take the time to read what you have to say as only by listening to the fans can we start to rebuild.
Thanks to everyone who took the time to complete our survey relating to supporter satisfaction, next year's season tickets and the proposed stadium development.
More than 500 fans took part, and the results of this - which are detailed below - have been sent to John Nelms and Tim Keyes for their consideration. We have also sent more than 200 comments from the free text section and urged them to take the time to read these in order to properly understand the feelings of fans at the moment.
We have reiterated our hope that they will agree to meet up with us to discuss our suggestions and other ways of rebuilding the relationship between the club and its fanbase.
We have also asked that the club consider extending the early bird period for season tickets to allow more fans to be able to take advantage of discounted prices given the financial challenges facing so many of us at this time.
Do you plan on buying a 2022/23 season ticket?
Yes 150
No 205
Unsure 154
Were you a season ticket-holder for the season that just finished?
Yes 345
No 164
If you didn’t have a season ticket for the season just finished, when was the last time you had one?
2020/21 22
2019/20 16
2018/19 19
2017/18 9
2016/17 7
Earlier 72
Never had one 36
N/A 225
What factors most strongly influence your decision whether or not to buy a season ticket?
Division we are playing in 89
Managerial appointments 263
Standard of football 245
Price/value for money 302
Standard of facilities 120
Matchday experience 134
Distance 56
Work/family commitments 95
Running of the club 258
Other 62
Whether you plan on buying a season ticket or not, do you intend to attend more or less games at Dens Park next year?
More 46
Less 170
About the same 293
Do you support the club’s proposed new stadium development at Camperdown?
Yes 292
No 95
Undecided 123
Do you think the new stadium will ever be built?
Yes 47
No 285
Unsure 178
How satisfied were you with the club’s response to our original open letter?
Very satisfied 5
Satisfied 21
Neutral 126
Unsatisfied 199
Very unsatisfied 159
How satisfied are you with the way the club is being run?
Very satisfied 3
Satisfied 20
Neutral 65
Unsatisfied 255
Very unsatisfied 167
Much has happened since we asked you to sign this open letter eight weeks ago.
Most notably, Dundee succumbed to relegation. While there have been positive signs that the football side of the club is now moving in the right direction, we believe much more needs to be done to rebuild the relationship between the club and its fanbase. Season ticket sales to date suggest there is some way to go to win over a sceptical and disillusioned support.
From the outset we wanted the club to appreciate how deeply this relationship had deteriorated and to commit to a programme of reform. John Nelms and Tim Keyes ruled out our initial proposals and have so far not acknowledged subsequent communications, including alternative suggestions and the results of a fan satisfaction survey that many of you took part in.
While disappointed that John and Tim chose not to engage with these ideas or to meet to discuss the situation, we remain committed to ensuring that the voice of Dundee fans is heard and that they can help rebuild the club. It has become clear, however, that we need to pursue alternative strategies if that is to happen.
Dee4Life directors Norrie Price and Gary Cocker were among the hundreds of Dundee fans we spoke to in the aftermath of the open letter. The more we talked the more we realised that our aims aligned, leading us to discuss ways of working collaboratively.
The outcome of these talks is that four of the original signatories – Ross Day, Grant Hill, George McIrvine and Ryan Norrie – have been appointed to the Dee4Life board as External Directors. In addition, Grant McGregor, another open letter backer, will be joining as Financial Director. All members of our group will continue to work to advance our aims alongside the existing board.
This is not something we foresaw when we first asked fans to back our letter to John Nelms and Tim Keyes, and we appreciate not every Dundee supporter will agree with our course of action. We know there are issues within Dee4Life in terms of its capacity and perception that need to be addressed if it is to be effective in both supporting the club and scrutinising its activities. In discussions, the Dee4Life board impressed us with their willingness to commit to change to become a more agile and modern organisation. We believe we bring fresh ideas, drive and energy to the table, and we intend to use the Dee4Life platform to benefit everyone with the good of Dundee FC at heart.
Working in the best interests of Dundee supporters will be at the heart of everything the new Dee4Life board does, and specifically we will strive to:
• Rebuild the relationship between the club and Dee4Life
• Work with other groups to develop a system of representation that ensures the views of fans are heard at board level
• Support the club by providing financial assistance where possible and appropriate
• Assist the club’s efforts to engage with fans and the wider community in order to grow its support base
• Ensure accountability of the club’s functions and performance
• Generate new ideas that will aid the club’s efforts in all areas it currently works and new ones
• Act as a bridge to the expertise of the fanbase
• Reform Dee4Life to create a more active organisation capable of dealing with contemporary challenges
• Attract new members to Dee4Life
• Increase the number of active members willing to lend their skillsets to the club and Trust
Work has already begun, with the formation of working groups to review Dee4Life operations, develop proposals for improved fan representation, and explore new fundraising opportunities.
We also want new, former, and potential members of Dee4Life to help shape its direction. More details of activities to this end will be announced soon.
Our experiences over the past two months have convinced us that only through a vibrant group representing as large and diverse a group of Dundee supporters can we hope to bring about meaningful and positive change.
If you want to help play your part in this, please sign up to Dee4Life by visiting www.Dee4life.com or by emailing contact@dee4life.com and asking for a membership form.